Phantogram interview: Josh Carter reflects on making of 'Three' and need to evolve
Josh Carter and Sarah Barthel set the tone for their forthcoming third album, "Three," with a breathtaking ballad called "Funeral Pyre" that Carter says was recorded for "Voices," their previous effort, and later reshaped with new lyrics to serve as the perfect transition into where they are today.
And as the album makes its way through such obvious highlights as the hard-grooving heartache of "You Don't Get Me High Anymore" and cutting-edge pop classicism of "Cruel World," it's clear that "Three" is just the next step in an evolution that's taken Phantogram from "Eyelid Movies" to this year's model, offering a slightly different take on who they are at every turn.
Here's what Carter has to say about that evolution, working with The-Dream and Tricky Stewart and how the death of Barthel's sister shaped the sessions for their latest triumph.
Question: How did you decide on "You Don’t Get Me High Anymore" as the lead single?
Answer: We were excited about it and thought it was catchy, you know? Everybody we played it for was like, “Oh man, this sounds like a single. I can’t get this hook out of my head.” So we were like, “All right, let’s try throwing this out into the world see if people dig it or not.”
Q: And are they digging it?
A: So far so good. It’s a little bit different and I’m sure some of our fans aren’t digging it the same way they may have dug other songs, but you know, we’re growing as a band and we’re changing and trying to be creative with everything we do and not just re-create the same thing over and over again.
Q: Is that a concern for you, the idea that some fans will get left behind as you continue to evolve? Is that something you think about?
A: Occasionally I do. When I, like, decide that I want to get worried about things that I have no control over? Most of my favorite artists, they evolved and they changed and they switched up their style from record to record, you know? It still sounds like a Phantogram album. But it is an evolution. Think about David Bowie from “Hunky Dory” to “Ziggy Stardust” to “Scary Monsters (And Super Creeps)” to s--t he did in the ‘90s with Trent Reznor, then his latest album, which is magnificent and very jazz-influenced. Or the Beatles going from playing a lot of cover songs to their pot-smoking era with “Rubber Soul” to psychedelia with “Sgt. Pepper’s.” Even Kanye West, from “College Dropout” to a record like “808s and Heartbreaks” to “Yeezus.” It’s good to evolve as an artist and you do run the risk of losing fans but if people are open-minded enough and they’re with you, they’ll understand that that’s how it works. What I like about Phantogram is that from the beginning, we’ve always sounded like Phantogram but we’ve had this way of approaching the making of our albums with trying to diversify the sound. I would never want to pigeonhole us and be like, oh, we have to sound like a garage-punk band. What would happen if a band like Best Coast started all the sudden using drum machines? Or Ty Segall? There’s certain bands I feel like, and no disrespect to them, they’re kind of stuck in their sound. And I feel like we have the freedom to do whatever the f--k we want because our s—t changes from song to song.
Q: You collaborated with The-Dream and Tricky Stewart on this album. And of course they’ve worked on massive hits for people like Beyonce and Rihanna. What were you hoping they would bring to the proceedings as collaborators?
A: I wasn’t hoping anything. I found that they were big fans of our music and I thought it would be an interesting thing to just try out and see how we vibe. And we all had a really great time together. We spent, like, five days in the studio messing around. It’s cool to get an outside perspective on what other people think of our sound and what they would want to do with it. When we first started, we didn’t want anybody to hear our music at all so it was, like, signed, sealed and delivered. But the more we’ve grown as a band, the more we’ve found that you can learn from other people. Whether or not it makes it onto the record, it’s nice to stay open-minded. We’ve collaborated with Flaming Lips, Big Boi, the Antlers, lots of different artists. It’s fun.
Q: Do you feel like there usually are takeaways or things you learn?
A: Yeah, I mean sometimes I learn that I don’t want to work with certain people ever again.
Q: Really? (laughs).
A: I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. But I’m sure that happens. There are takeaways from everything. Maybe somebody brings something to the table and you’re like “Oh s—t, I didn’t think of doing that. That’s a great idea. Sha-bam. Sha-boom.
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Q: (Laughs) Are there specific examples of that on this record?
A: I’m trying to think. We did this podcast the other day that broke down “You Don’t Get Me High Anymore.” The demo that I started writing and then Sarah and I started writing together sound very different from the final outcome. We wouldn’t have thought to have that lull with the sort of ‘80s-sounding synth. And at first, I was like we’d never use this sound. But then, we ran it through a tape machine and tried to make it sound more like a sample. It basically is a sample. We sampled ourselves. And I wasn’t really into that vibe but our co-producer Ricky Reed suggested it and then it grew on us.
Q: Working with people like The-Dream and Tricky Stewart, do you think Phantogram could have the kind of pop success those guys have had with other artists and is that something that appeals to you?
A: I would personally like to achieve any kind of pop success in a way that maintains our integrity of what we like to do as artists. I’m not gonna get into any kind of territory where it’s like “Hey, write us a song and we’ll make it a Phantogram song.” I would rather be trailblazers and become successful on our own terms. And I think so far we have become successful on our own terms. We’re a very grass-roots band and people are catching on day by day, every tour. That’s how I would prefer any kind of success. I would prefer it to be in the sense that bands in the ‘90s like Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins became very successful. People came to them. It wasn’t like, “Let’s work with Quincy Jones so we can make the best pop hit record of all time.” And that’s why we were hoping to work with those two. We were like, “Oh, these guys are interested in f—king around with us? OK, cool. Let’s keep an open mind and see what happens.”
Q: You mentioned Bowie. He’s a brilliant example of someone who did that throughout his career.
A: Absolutely.
Q: Bowie died as you were working on this record, and I read in Pitchfork where you talked about how that was one of a handful of deaths that were really weighing on you two as you were working on this record. Do you feel that coming to terms with those deaths came through in the recording process?
A: Absolutely. I mean, we suffered a tremendous personal tragedy during the making of this record and you hear a lot of that throughout. You hear anger and a lot of pain and sorrow in this album. But there’s also a glimmer of hope in it. But yeah, we lost Sarah’s sister, Becky, who was a best friend and a sister to me. She was obviously a biological sister to Sarah. And a lot of that pain went into this album.
Q: Did you find that working on the music helped you through that at all? Was there a cathartic element to it?
A: It was very cathartic and a good way to work through the pain and express these feelings that you couldn’t necessarily or would even want to talk about with other people.
Q: You mentioned how you’ve done the grass-roots thing. Is that primarily through touring?
A: Definitely. We toured on “Eyelid Movies” three years straight. Then, we put out the “Nightlife” EP and toured on that. And we kept on moving and making music at the same, writing records. We went from playing to five people a night around the U.S. if we were lucky and maybe those five people were in the other band that was on the bill in Toledo, Ohio, to 15 people a night to 50 to 500 to 1,000. I think it was a lot of word of mouth. It was a little bit more traditional, I guess. We’ve gotten good critical reception, which has helped, but we’ve never been any kind of super buzz band, like overnight internet sensations, or anything like that. I think we have true fans that dig us. And we take our live show very seriously. We try and put on a really good live show. And I think that translates and makes people excited to come the next time we’re in their hometown. The new live show is gonna be ridiculous. We’re working with new visuals and obviously playing songs off our new record and all our albums. I’m stoked. I can’t wait to hit the road.
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Phantogram
When: 8 p.m. Friday, Sept. 30.
Where: Marquee Theatre, 730 N. Mill Ave., Tempe.
Admission: $27.50-$42.50.
Details: 480-829-0607, luckymanonline.com.
Reach the reporter at ed.masley@arizonarepublic.com or 602-444-4495.Twitter.com/EdMasley.